10%, or less than 1%? the last one was chosen by only one out of five people. tom foreman, cnn, washington. >> that's it for me. thanks for watching. i'm wolf blitzer in "the situation room." republicans are on a witch hunt going after the one guy who's trying to clean up the vv va. >> excuse me for not feeling sorry for eric shinseki. the debate starts right now. >> tonight on "crossfire," scandalous mistreatment of america's veterans. >> makes me mad as hell. >> waiting lists. patient deaths. manipulation and cover-ups. >> could you explain to me after knowing all this information why you should not resign? >> on the left, van jones. on the right, s.e. cupp. in the "crossfire" lawrence, a former assistant secretary of

defense, and jesse dane duff of concerned veterans for america. how to we take better care of our veterans? does it start by firing the man at the top? tonight on "crossfire." welcome to "crossfire." i'm s. e. cupp on the right. >> i'm van jones on the left. tonight we have two advocates for america's veterans. veterans affair secretary eric shinseki was on capitol hill today fighting to keep his job. cnn senior investigative correspondent drew griffin actually broke the story in the first place. his reporting is the reason the senate had the hearing today. he's here to give us a closer look of how we got here. >> van, and s.e., this is an eruption and a scandal basically because of our reporting out of a phoenix va medical center last month in which sources told us of a secret waiting list where veterans were simply left waiting for care on a secret list trying to hide the fact of just how long they had been waiting. some up to 21 months.

our same sources tell us at that va facility, 40 veterans, maybe even more, may have died because of delayed care. but keep in mind, this is only one part of this what we're calling now a va scandal. we've been reporting since last november on wait lists at va facilities across the country that have led by the va's own admission to 23 deaths. some 80, what they're calling adverse medical outcomes. so these wait list problems have been building and as we have continued to report, the va, the office of inspector general, they have all known about all of this. not just since our reporting, but years and years before when wait list have been brought up and nothing seem to have been done. >> thanks. that's terrible. look, nobody is going to defend this horror show that cnn has uncovered. here's the real question, though. how do we fix this, okay?

that's the real question if you care about the veterans. you don't start by firing eric shinseki before we know what's going on. a fair investigation might prove shinseki is the good guy trying to raise the standards and bureaucratics beneath him are sabotaging his reform. don't fire the guy before the investigation. number two, can we please shut down the kabuki theater here? we have real people if pain. let's not forget, though, reckless republicans started the most recent round of wars and then republicans have been blocking the increase for the health care that might have helped some of these wounded warriors. now, now the same republicans are the ones who are screaming the loudest about a system they helped to overload with their wars and are now underfunding. so can we please stop the hypocrisy olympics, s.e., and get to the bottom of the situation first? >> we're going to get to the bottom of it. i'm not surprised you're blaming all this on republicans. >> just saying there has to be some responsibility on both sides. >> we'll get to it. the man at the top would be our

first place to start. we have two veterans in the "crossfire." larry corb, assistant defense secretary during the reagan administration. jessie dane duff. larry, after cnn broke the story about these deaths which led to the hearings on capitol hill today, secretary shinseki had this to say in the hearing. take a listen. >> this is a robust system. a good portion of it works. what we're focusing on is scheduling. >> now, for me, shinseki is not the biggest problem. he's part of the problem. in what bizarre-o world does a person who talks up the death of 40 veterans to a scheduling problem get to keep his job? >> wait a second. that's not true. the inspector general who also testified today said i've looked into that. there's no evidence that the wait times caused those deaths and you've got to remember,

since general shinseki took over, himself a wounded warrior -- >> right. >> -- okay. basically the number of people, you know, claims being processed has gone down. the number -- the wait times has gone down. look, what happened is we assume, and it was republicans running the country then, that these wars would be short and they'd be over. when general shinseki said, no, it wouldn't, he was ridiculed by paul wolfowitz and donald rumsfeld and so we didn't prepare for this. and if you go back and you take a look at where we were in 2008 and where we are now, we're not where we need to be. but we're much better off than we are. >> i'm appalled at all of this because all of you have missing one point. the backlog that started a lot of this mess was not the current wars. it was vietnam veterans allowed in in 2009 because they were never recognized for agent orange illness. never recognized by the v.a. for

agent orange illness. that's where the backlog started and where the treatment came in. it's not your afghan and iraq wars. let's not talk about that. that's not even part of the topic. let's not mix messages here. this isn't a republican issue. this is not a democrat issue. this is a veterans issue. that's a slap in the face to all veterans when you indicate -- >> i'm going to shock you. we agree on something. agent orange should have been a part of this thing from the whole beginning and it was eric shinseki that brought it -- >> absolutely. >> aren't you proud of him for that? >> which one is it going to be? you want to blame republicans. now you're admitting it was agent orange. >> no, no, no, they did not -- no doubt it was the vietnam veterans of which i'm one, but it was also the fact they didn't prepare for the mental illness that has begun to overwhelm the system. >> five years into this -- >> let me take jessie's point and let's agree, move forward and talk about solutions. this is like arguing over why you got pregnant. you have a baby, we have to take care of it. we have vets.

whether they exist because of republicans or democrats should not matter. we've got them. how are we going to take care of them? let's focus on the solutions. >> okay. >> 55 veterans died a day by the va's own records waiting for benefits in 2011 by their own records. that's close to 20,000 veterans who couldn't even get awarded their benefits on time. average wait time was 345 days. you can get food stamps in 30 days. some veterans are waiting over 600 days. i'm tired of hearing they weren't prepared. we're five years into this. when he was sworn into office in 2009, in his own testimony he stated i will get rid of the backlog. at that point, there were 11,000 veterans in the balk log fcklog year. escalated by 2,000% under his watch to 245,000 veterans in 4 years. >> nope, nope, nope. first of all, first of all, that's not right. your data is all wrong. i'll show it you. you're making it up. look at the data here. look at the data as it's coming down. >> i think you're unfair to eric

shinseki. he changed the definition of backlog from 180 days to 120 days. what you're talking about is somebody who's a reformer who's leaning forward trying to solve the problem. >> i'm sorry, i can't be sympathetic when we're talking about veterans who aren't getting fair ratings. i deal with veterans every day. now they're trying to shove these ratings through and many of them aren't getting accurate ratings. the appeals are climbing. we have over a quarter million veterans in the appeals. average wait time, 1,200 days. >> why isn't disabled veterans of america saying he should stay in and commending him? they're the most affected. >> american legion is asking for it. >> american legion is not the disabled veterans. >> i'm a member of disabled americans veterans. doesn't mean we all agree. >> i'm a member of american legion and i don't agree, either. >> van -- one at a time, guys. van and larry, to your point, let's take wrr word that eric

sh had great recommendations and was a leader. doesn't this make the point the bureaucrats underneath him were unable to implement this because it's too big and unwieldy? does it matter when he wanted to do? he didn't get to do it. >> it matters if people cook the books. they should be held accountable. that's why you have an inspector general investigation. what we're trying to do. again, the inspector general testified today after general shinseki. >> my thing is, look, this is horrible. nobody -- everybody is shocked. it's a bipartisan outrage across the country. but the reality is, don't you think people are jumping the gun? >> no, because we are talking about this over five years. >> let me finish my question. don't you think people are jumping gun to say he should be fired before there's been an investigation? under george w. bush you had a horrible situation with walter reed. >> let's get back to this. >> they did fire executives at walter reed. >> no, they didn't fire the secretary of defense. >> they didn't fire bob gates. >> secretary of defense had the authority to fire people.

right now secretary shinseki does not. that's the first thing. get the va management accountability act in there. that's the first thing. the second thing, when he was asked today by the senator if he would get rid of management, he said, i don't want to jump the gun on that. i want to talk to nigh i.g. wait a minute, everybody is talking about phoenix. i've been studying this over a year. you have five dead veterans at dorn medical facility who could not get in on time for colon ospies. you have bonuses given to executives when they have gotten mismanagement problems. you have one in dayton, ohio, who had an unsanitary dental facility and got an $11,000 bonus. you're rewarding executives. meanwhile, they have junk going on on their watch. it's not just phoenix. it's all over the nation. >> there's been a lack of accountability for quite a while under shinseki, a number of deaths not just in phoenix under his watch. people are frustrated he's not been held accountable. look, i don't just want secretary shinseki to get a pink slip. next, i'll explain why i want to see someone behind bars.

first today' "crossfire" quiz, how many veterans receive health care from the va every year? 1.7 million, 6.3 million, or 14.2 million? we'll have the answer when we get back. america's newest real estate brand is all ready the brand of the year. berkshire hathaway home services. good to know.

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welcome back. now the answer to our "crossfire" quiz. every year 6.3 million veterans receive health care from the va. of course, we thank them for their service. today after cnn investigations revealed s eed some veterans di because they were kept on secret waiting lists instead of getting treatment, a senate committee

started asking some questions. once again the obama administration is circling the wagons to protect its own. president obama says he still has faith in veterans affairs secretary eric shinseki. just like he stood by kathleen sebelius during the glitches and hillary clinton after benghazi. just this week attorney general eric holder said the justice department has no plans to investigate the mess at the va. he's content to sit back and let the va investigate the va. well, at least one democrat is smart enough to realize that's a bad idea. here's senator richard blumenthal at today's hearing. >> isn't there evidence here of criminal wrongdoing, that it's falsifying records, false statements to the federal government? that's a crime under the -- >> should be, yes. >> and wouldn't it be appropriate to ask for assistance from the federal bureau of investigation or some other similar agency? >> you'd think so. yeah. in the "crossfire" tonight, larry korb, jessie jane duff. they have not been shy in their

investigations. they investigated media leaks, investigated sheriff joe arpaio, investigated e-book price fixing. they have no plans to investigate the deaths of 40 veterans. why does it seem like instead of holding people accountable, the administration wants to protect the people currently in place? >> well, first of all, as i mentioned before, the inspector general who, by the way, is independent of the secretary, he or she is confirmed by the congress, reports to the congress, said there's no evidence that any of the deaths are related to the waiting list. that's him. okay? what he's investigating. >> larry, even eric shinseki today said that the i.g. is overloaded and has too much work on its plate. why are we waiting even further to figure out what this report -- we know what happened. >> no, we don't know what happened. we know whistleblowers. do you believe edward snowden? okay. i'm asking you.

you've got whistleblowers here coming out. now the i.g. is not big enough, you can get more people in the i.g. >> right. >> that's what you need to do. then if they find criminal things, then they turn it over to the justice department. >> do you think criminal charges are going to happen? >> i don't know. okay? i mean, you know, we always jump to conclusions and then we find out, hey, we overreacted. >> now, to you, you would have to agree this is not a democrat problem, that the va has been a bipartisan mess for a while. w wouldn't you agree? >> it's never been run well. it's the second largest bureaucracy next to d.o.d. >> it's a bipartisan problem. the republicans had an opportunity to help fix it. i want to show you a comment, you mentioned the american legion. says, i don't know how anyone who voted no today can look a veteran in the eye and justify the vote. he's talking about the vote in february where republicans stood together in the senate and blocked more help for the va.

aren't you concerned about republicans not doing right by veterans? >> that's a misleading argument. more help for the va was going to allow more veterans into system who didn't have service-related disability. you can't have a system who have everybody who checked a box and was a desk jockey get into the va. they can't handle what they've got. that's a misleading argument. i believe the va is being mismanaged and increased in that in the last five years significantly. >> i want to just pin you down on something. what you just said i thought was shockingly disappointing. there was a bill that was a real opportunity and a real shot to protect people who serve this country. >> bernie sanders' bill? you're talking about bernie sanders' bill? >> you're saying the only people wow think who serve this country who need help and support are ones who had a weapon? >> that's not what i said. i'm asking you -- >> you called them desk jockeys. >> is that bernie sanders' bill

you're talking about? >> yes. >> bernie sanders' bill wanted to allow everybody who served to go into the va medical system. you can't do that. the va is set up for service-related disability. it's service-related disability. >> you got it wrong. the v.a. allows you if you have served and you have financial problems where you can't get it, they let people in like that. and you mentioned earlier about the agent orange thing coming back. we don't know now people who, you know, had no disability. when i got out, they didn't know about agent orange when we left. they never talked about it. a couple of years ago, i came down with colon cancer, and the doctor said it was probably agent orange. >> absolutely. >> i didn't go to the v.a., because thank god i work at a place that has health insurance. but you don't know. and that's what bernie sander's bill was trying to say. >> 22 million veterans in this

country, and they can't even serve the 6 million we have now. you're going to saturate a system. it would collapse it. that's what i'm saying. >> let me address it. some are arguing and continued to argue this is republicans blocking votes and the lack of funding on the part of republicans. a panel of experts today resoundingly rejected the idea that is an issue of funding. the v.a. has increased its funding, doubled it in fact between 2001 and 2013. >> we doubled the force. >> it has 300,000 employees. this isn't an issue of funding and staffing. isn't this an issue, as we said, of unwieldy bureaucracy that cannot be managed? >> well, there is no doubt about the fact that it's a giant bureaucracy and we've had trouble managing it. but i would argue it's getting much better. since rick shinseki has been in there, the number of people receiving care is up 20%, okay. his budget isn't up 20%. you were going back to a 2001. it has increased. things are getting better.

the number of claimants has gone down from 800,000 to 500,000. okay. so when you say things is it perfect? heck no. and i think we need to -- when we go to war, regardless of whom to count that as a cost. because you owe it to those men and women for all of the time. >> stay here. we're going to get you guys at home in on this argument. and please weigh in on our fireback question. do you think at home shore, secretary shinseki resign from the department of veteran affairs over this? tweet yes or no using #crossfire. i'll give you the results after the break. we're also going to have our outrages of the day. i am personally outraged about something that happened today at lunch. tell you about it when we get back.

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welcome back. now it's time for the outrages of the day. you know, what did you eat for lunch today? as for me, i grabbed a chicken sandwich. now, don't blame me. one out of every four americans eats some fast foods, which means our waistlines are getting bigger. but the paychecks for the people who prepare that food are still way too small. fast food workers earn on average just $11,000 a year. they work all year. they get $11,000. here is the outrage. the ceos, their bosses make double that, double in just one day. that's why today thousands of fast food workers in 33 countries have staged an actual strike. and that's why the minimum wage should be a living wage. it's something for you at home to chew on. >> okay. well, how is this for you.

a teacher in hancock county, ohio, was suspended only ten days for lifting a kindergartner up by the face and pinning him to the wall. here is the shocking video. barb williams, a teacher at the riverdale schools essentially got an early start to her summer vacation as there are only ten days left of school for manhandling a child who is supposed to be under her care. now, to put this in context, a tenth grader was recently suspended in maine for the same length of time for having a yellow squirt gun in school. now, as a child, i was hit by a teacher in front of the entire grade. it was humiliating and terrifying. there is no place for educators who lay hands on our children in our schools. hancock county parents should demand she be fired immediately and sent on a permanent summer vacation. >> hear hear on that. let's check our fireback results. we asked you at home should. secretary shinseki resign from the department of veteran affairs. right now 43% of you say yes, and 57% say no.

so, listen, after today's testimony based on this, do you think he is going to be able to survive this whole thing? >> i think he is going to survive, because under this administration, they all survive. they do. >> that's just terrible. >> well, no one is held accountable. it's true. no one goes. >> what do you think? >> i think he'll survive because basically he has done a good job with the mess he was handed, not just from the bush administration, but from other long period of time. and have basically, he himself is a disabled american veteran. >> don't you think he is actually being undermined by people under him? even on agent orange, he did what you want him to do and now you're against him. >> i applaud him for bringing in agent orange. i don't applaud him for being ill prepared to manage it. we have had scandal after scandal. people are talking about phoenix, this goes back years. and i have highlighted many of these scandals, and they should vietnam be investigated a long time ago. where there is smoke, there is fire and if they started investigating, they would have found this. >> how many dead veterans before someone is held accountable?

>> i want to appreciate both of you for your service. the debate is going to continue online at cnn.com/crossfire as well as facebook and twitter. from the left, i'm van jones. >> from the right i'm s.e. cupp. join us next time for another edition of "crossfire." "erin burnett outfront" starts right now. next, breaking news. wildfires raging out of control in southern california. thousands of homes, more than 100,000 people in flames way. we're live from the scene of the biggest fire. plus, breaking news on malaysia airlines. exclusive new information about the satellite data at the center of the search. only "outfront." and the man who says he is the zodiac killer's son is my guest tonight. let's go "outfront." >> this is cnn breaking news.